“I think it is vitally important that world leaders be brought to justice when they commit atrocities. Dictators commit atrocities because they believe they will not be punished. History teaches them this. We have to enforce the rule of law to finally stop the killing, torture, abuse and the suffering and grieving. I firmly believe this applies to all government officials. No one should be above the law. In the end, it’s all we have to protect us.”
oddly enough, right above it is a video of springsteen singing a song about bringing the troops home, which, coincidentally enough, those same troops actually captured saddam hussein!
now, maybe your definitions of “dictator” and “atrocity” are different from mine. however, i think it’s cute, if not hypocritical, that in one post, someone is ranting about pinochet’s death and how dictators who commit atrocities (say…gassing their own people, having rape rooms, torture rooms, etc) should be brought to justice, and in another post, there is a video about bringing the troops home who actually DID bring a dictator who committed atrocities to justice.
maybe you guys can clarify..do you only support bringing horrible dictators to justice when a democrat is in the white house (this is assuming they would..), or was pinochet really worse than saddam?
RKP- Are you saying I condoned Hussein’s actions but not Pinochet’s? Are you saying that a right wing dictator is some how better than others? You need to read carefully for comprehension. I have not seen a post here that supported Saddam. No one supported Saddam, and I certainly do not, but if we are in the business or getting rid of atrocious governments, we would be invading most of Africa and Asia.
I didn’t put any qualifiers on dictators or governments that commit crimes. I certainly appreciate the condescending tone though. So do you believe we should invade every country that commits crimes against people? Or only the ones with oil that we don’t like or have left-leaning tendencies?
Is it ok that American operatives in Iraq and apparently in other countries have tortured, raped and murdered people? Should they not be prosecuted because they are American or work for the American government?
Do you think the invasion of Iraq worked out well and benefited the United States? Terror incidents have increased world-wide since the invasion. Bin Laden is still out there as well as other terror groups. Or that our help in overthrowing Allende and installing Pinochet was beneficial to U.S. interests? It wreaked havoc on American business interests and diplomatic relations across South America in the 70′s. Sovereign nations do not appreciate outside intervention in their duly elected governments. People were tortured and killed in Chile and Argentina. The atrocities in Iraq and Dafur are escalating.
Illegal, wrong, evil – it doesn’t matter what the political philosophy is. It is a God given right to live in peace free from harm from a government. I said hold everyone one of them accountable.
I’m saying that on a blog which consistently complains about the war in iraq and how it was a giant ass mistake, it seemed hypocritical to me that they would allow what you said to be put up. i’d like to hear what the editor has to say about it instead of you.
hindsight is 20/20. we can look back and say how stupid it was installing pinochet, or arming bin laden, etc. if we knew what mistakes those things would turn out to be, i have enough faith in the federal government to believe that they wouldn’t have done it, but unfortunately, we don’t have crystal balls. who’s to say john howard won’t be our arch enemy in 20 years?
i don’t believe we should be getting rid of every dictator who runs an ‘atrocious government’, however, i do think we should get rid of the worst, (and leave the rest to the UN to handle /sarcasm). bush 41 should have done it, clinton should have done it, and i’m glad bush 43 had the balls to do it. are things going perfectly over there? of course not, but what do you expect? i still think removing saddam was the right decision. regardless of what you believe, we have freed millions from a ruthless dictator. that, to me, makes the sacrifices of our troops worth it. after 9/11, we had a choice of either sitting around to be attacked again, or be preemptive and save civilian lives. bush had the same intelligence that clinton did (would you like direct quotes?). how can you blame him for believe that saddam was an imminent threat to americans?
i was simply trying to say it’s a bit hypocritical on this blog to have a post about holding bastard dictators accountable. editor, what say you?
obviously i need to clarify my question, because you must have not understood what i was asking you….
do you agree or disagree with the statement Karen made in which she states that “it is vitally important that world leaders be brought to justice when they commit atrocities” and that “we have to enforce the rule of law to finally stop the killing, torture, abuse and the suffering and grieving.”
if so, how do you justify opposing the war in iraq?
if not, explain why those statements are incorrect.
First of all, even the most liberal of my friends understand that the UN is a completely powerless organization, but for the sake of respect, i’ll play along and pretend they’ve done something effective in the last decade (like stop genocide in darfur!)
might i ask that you specify how many free passes a dictator like saddam is allowed to have before he runs out of them? obviously 16 UN resolutions wasn’t enough to stop saddam. maybe your magic number is 17? 18? 19?
When I say they must be brought to justice, I mean the nation itself (as we did during Watergate) must investigate and prosecute. The world court would have jurisdiction in international matters such as war crimes. That the next government in Chile did not indict Pinochet is a travesty.
The Bush administration cooked the intel and purposely lied to the American public. They knew Hussein had no connection to 9/11. We were not attacked by Iraq. We had Iraq contained and sanctioned since the first Gulf war. Bush let Bin Laden go when they had him cornered in Afghanistan. Wh?. They pulled special ops and other troops to invade Iraq. I supported the Afghanistan invasion because that is where Al Queda was. Al Queda attacked us.
The UN is not perfect but what is the alternative? When there is international support, such as Bosnia, the UN can be effective. We had the world’s support when we invaded Afghanistan. Bush squandered it and has weakened our position regarding North Korea and Iran. They must be thrilled with Bush’s bungling.
I would not demand troops serve in a war that I know was started with false intel. No one has the right to do that. The people in Iraq are caught in a nightmare. Life is much more dangerous and difficult for them (and I never thought it possible) now. We are dumping billions of dollars into this nightmare and things are worse for our national security. We are seriously damaging our security and bankrupting ourselves. How is this good for us?
BTW, it didn’t take hindsight to see this was a huge mistake. His father knew it, Clinton knew, and a lot of other respected experienced people knew it (Powell and the fired generals to name a few. Too bad Powell didn’t have a scruples enough to resign before his speech at the UN). Only a handful of neocon draft dodgers didn’t.
About that draft dodger thing, RKP: I’ve never really heard a straight answer from a Bush supporter regarding Cheney’s draft deferments. It’s “noble” of him to excuse himself from fighting in inconvenient wars (5 times, I believe), and equally “noble” for him to advocate war that he nor his immediate family will be anywhere near decades later? I’m baffled here. While brave men and women fight and die across the ocean, the Commander and Chief’s fighting-age daughters have drunken escapades on several continents on the tax payers’ dime while his VP thanks his lucky stars that he never had to see any battle. What a world. What say you, RKP?
Are you justifying the American invasion of Iraq with the American supported installation of Pinochet? I’m lost on this one.
If the U.S. had finished the job in Afghanistan (lots of Troops, lots of support for the new government), we would have had all of the international support there is to deal with Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.
The nations of the world (aside from the relentlessly anti-U.S. ones) sympathised with us following 9/11…we blew that support by using that tragic attack to invade a country that had nothing to do with it.
Now, becasue of misinformation coupled with a failed and consistent execution of the war in Iraq, our international support bank is overdrawn and our armed forces are spread too thin.
RKP, your initial comment was lame (at best) and your support of it is even more ridiculous. Think.
in the post below, it says:
“I think it is vitally important that world leaders be brought to justice when they commit atrocities. Dictators commit atrocities because they believe they will not be punished. History teaches them this. We have to enforce the rule of law to finally stop the killing, torture, abuse and the suffering and grieving. I firmly believe this applies to all government officials. No one should be above the law. In the end, it’s all we have to protect us.”
oddly enough, right above it is a video of springsteen singing a song about bringing the troops home, which, coincidentally enough, those same troops actually captured saddam hussein!
now, maybe your definitions of “dictator” and “atrocity” are different from mine. however, i think it’s cute, if not hypocritical, that in one post, someone is ranting about pinochet’s death and how dictators who commit atrocities (say…gassing their own people, having rape rooms, torture rooms, etc) should be brought to justice, and in another post, there is a video about bringing the troops home who actually DID bring a dictator who committed atrocities to justice.
maybe you guys can clarify..do you only support bringing horrible dictators to justice when a democrat is in the white house (this is assuming they would..), or was pinochet really worse than saddam?
You REALLY REALLY have to suck to make Saddam Hussein look good.
I cant see anything.
Just because one thing is wrong doesnt make everything else right.
RKP- Are you saying I condoned Hussein’s actions but not Pinochet’s? Are you saying that a right wing dictator is some how better than others? You need to read carefully for comprehension. I have not seen a post here that supported Saddam. No one supported Saddam, and I certainly do not, but if we are in the business or getting rid of atrocious governments, we would be invading most of Africa and Asia.
I didn’t put any qualifiers on dictators or governments that commit crimes. I certainly appreciate the condescending tone though. So do you believe we should invade every country that commits crimes against people? Or only the ones with oil that we don’t like or have left-leaning tendencies?
Is it ok that American operatives in Iraq and apparently in other countries have tortured, raped and murdered people? Should they not be prosecuted because they are American or work for the American government?
Do you think the invasion of Iraq worked out well and benefited the United States? Terror incidents have increased world-wide since the invasion. Bin Laden is still out there as well as other terror groups. Or that our help in overthrowing Allende and installing Pinochet was beneficial to U.S. interests? It wreaked havoc on American business interests and diplomatic relations across South America in the 70′s. Sovereign nations do not appreciate outside intervention in their duly elected governments. People were tortured and killed in Chile and Argentina. The atrocities in Iraq and Dafur are escalating.
Illegal, wrong, evil – it doesn’t matter what the political philosophy is. It is a God given right to live in peace free from harm from a government. I said hold everyone one of them accountable.
Karen -
I’m saying that on a blog which consistently complains about the war in iraq and how it was a giant ass mistake, it seemed hypocritical to me that they would allow what you said to be put up. i’d like to hear what the editor has to say about it instead of you.
hindsight is 20/20. we can look back and say how stupid it was installing pinochet, or arming bin laden, etc. if we knew what mistakes those things would turn out to be, i have enough faith in the federal government to believe that they wouldn’t have done it, but unfortunately, we don’t have crystal balls. who’s to say john howard won’t be our arch enemy in 20 years?
i don’t believe we should be getting rid of every dictator who runs an ‘atrocious government’, however, i do think we should get rid of the worst, (and leave the rest to the UN to handle /sarcasm). bush 41 should have done it, clinton should have done it, and i’m glad bush 43 had the balls to do it. are things going perfectly over there? of course not, but what do you expect? i still think removing saddam was the right decision. regardless of what you believe, we have freed millions from a ruthless dictator. that, to me, makes the sacrifices of our troops worth it. after 9/11, we had a choice of either sitting around to be attacked again, or be preemptive and save civilian lives. bush had the same intelligence that clinton did (would you like direct quotes?). how can you blame him for believe that saddam was an imminent threat to americans?
i was simply trying to say it’s a bit hypocritical on this blog to have a post about holding bastard dictators accountable. editor, what say you?
What do I say?
Stories of the Golem always ends with it destroying its creator. We created Pinochet. We created Hussein. We created Bin Laden.
Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Editor -
obviously i need to clarify my question, because you must have not understood what i was asking you….
do you agree or disagree with the statement Karen made in which she states that “it is vitally important that world leaders be brought to justice when they commit atrocities” and that “we have to enforce the rule of law to finally stop the killing, torture, abuse and the suffering and grieving.”
if so, how do you justify opposing the war in iraq?
if not, explain why those statements are incorrect.
(please use number 2 pencil only. thanks)
Two letters: U.N.
Editor-
First of all, even the most liberal of my friends understand that the UN is a completely powerless organization, but for the sake of respect, i’ll play along and pretend they’ve done something effective in the last decade (like stop genocide in darfur!)
might i ask that you specify how many free passes a dictator like saddam is allowed to have before he runs out of them? obviously 16 UN resolutions wasn’t enough to stop saddam. maybe your magic number is 17? 18? 19?
and we wonder why NK and Iran laugh at diplomacy?
When I say they must be brought to justice, I mean the nation itself (as we did during Watergate) must investigate and prosecute. The world court would have jurisdiction in international matters such as war crimes. That the next government in Chile did not indict Pinochet is a travesty.
The Bush administration cooked the intel and purposely lied to the American public. They knew Hussein had no connection to 9/11. We were not attacked by Iraq. We had Iraq contained and sanctioned since the first Gulf war. Bush let Bin Laden go when they had him cornered in Afghanistan. Wh?. They pulled special ops and other troops to invade Iraq. I supported the Afghanistan invasion because that is where Al Queda was. Al Queda attacked us.
The UN is not perfect but what is the alternative? When there is international support, such as Bosnia, the UN can be effective. We had the world’s support when we invaded Afghanistan. Bush squandered it and has weakened our position regarding North Korea and Iran. They must be thrilled with Bush’s bungling.
I would not demand troops serve in a war that I know was started with false intel. No one has the right to do that. The people in Iraq are caught in a nightmare. Life is much more dangerous and difficult for them (and I never thought it possible) now. We are dumping billions of dollars into this nightmare and things are worse for our national security. We are seriously damaging our security and bankrupting ourselves. How is this good for us?
BTW, it didn’t take hindsight to see this was a huge mistake. His father knew it, Clinton knew, and a lot of other respected experienced people knew it (Powell and the fired generals to name a few. Too bad Powell didn’t have a scruples enough to resign before his speech at the UN). Only a handful of neocon draft dodgers didn’t.
About that draft dodger thing, RKP: I’ve never really heard a straight answer from a Bush supporter regarding Cheney’s draft deferments. It’s “noble” of him to excuse himself from fighting in inconvenient wars (5 times, I believe), and equally “noble” for him to advocate war that he nor his immediate family will be anywhere near decades later? I’m baffled here. While brave men and women fight and die across the ocean, the Commander and Chief’s fighting-age daughters have drunken escapades on several continents on the tax payers’ dime while his VP thanks his lucky stars that he never had to see any battle. What a world. What say you, RKP?
RKP,
Are you justifying the American invasion of Iraq with the American supported installation of Pinochet? I’m lost on this one.
If the U.S. had finished the job in Afghanistan (lots of Troops, lots of support for the new government), we would have had all of the international support there is to deal with Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.
The nations of the world (aside from the relentlessly anti-U.S. ones) sympathised with us following 9/11…we blew that support by using that tragic attack to invade a country that had nothing to do with it.
Now, becasue of misinformation coupled with a failed and consistent execution of the war in Iraq, our international support bank is overdrawn and our armed forces are spread too thin.
RKP, your initial comment was lame (at best) and your support of it is even more ridiculous. Think.
I guess RKP is helping the administration add to the long list of everchanging reasons we are in Iraq:
WMD
Iraqi Freedom
Ties to al Qaeda
Removing Saddam
Promoting Democracy Everywhere
War on Terror
Stabilizing the Middle East
and now:
Because Pinochet was a dictator…