Mon 30 Jan 2006
The other week I watched a report (Daily show or Colbert) on how the Pope has declared that there is no more Limbo. For those of you as ignorant as me, apparently Limbo is/was the place where Catholics believe the people born before Jesus went after they died and where the babies who die before being baptized go. Hell, Purgatory, Limbo, and Heaven. Correct me if I have misunderstood the way this works. Anyways, this really didn’t sit well with me. This man literally just walks out and announces out of the blue…’Ain’t no more Limbo’. The angels didn’t tell him, there was no burning bush, he didn’t hear any voices, St Peter didn’t send an email. They had a meeting and decided. Ain’t no more Limbo. Now I’m not real knowledgeable about the different religions. I was raised Southern Baptist. It’s all I know. I just don’t understand how the hell they just gonna get rid of Limbo. Presto chango…Poof..No more Limbo. Okay, so I go to work and I’m mad as hell for these people and I ask all the Catholic people I work with how they feel about it. Most people hadn’t heard about it yet and the few that did were just like….’yeah. That kind of stinks’ and just really shrugged it off. No more Limbo and ain’t nobody mad but me and I’m not even Catholic! It is this that got me to thinking about how politics is defining religion.
Democrats are being labeled God hating atheist who are the modern day Sodomites and the Republicans are religious fanatics using the bible to justify hate and intolerance. The weird thing is both sides seem to be pretty much accepting of these labels without much defense. Why? Neither of these is really true. Does anyone really believe you hate God if don’t think the 10 commandments should be on every corner and all Christians are racist loons? OK besides the extremist. There are and will always be extremist. I don’t understand our tolerance and almost acceptance of them.
I don’t know of many people who don’t believe in some sort of God (I say God because that is who I identify with but I really mean whatever higher being you believe in-Allah, Buda, Goddess of the Lunar, fate, whatever or nothing at all. Whatever you believe directs your moral compass.) But the “zealots” have twisted religion so much that Democrats are afraid to admit they pray or believe in anything and the Republicans are more afraid of being perceived as a “weak Christian” than actually being one.
When did Christianity become a pissing contest? When did so many people start putting more faith in the words of man than the word of God? How far is this going to go? When are people going to stand up and take God back? I’m a Democrat and a born again Christian. I am not ashamed of it. That means I don’t judge other people. I help those in need; I treat others the way I would want to be treated; and I forgive those who trespass against me. My God is all about love. Spiritual relationships, like most other relationships are private. What goes on between me and my husband is none of your business and what goes on between me and my God is none of your business whether it be abortion, death, sexual practices, or if I wear a burka and white shoes after Labor Day. I answer to Him and Him alone. It doesn’t matter who I believe “Him” (or “Her”)to be. When did American start thinking they had the power to decide for the masses how, when and what god everyone would serve? No one has that power or right. That is one of the main reason the founding fathers came here. Isnt it?
When did Democrats stop believing and defending that? When did America? Christians have let themselves be hijacked. Isn’t it time we started taking God back?
Sorry, Mrs. E. , you’re in way over your head when you comment on what you’ve heard of current Catholic theology on the Daily Show or the Colbert Report, of all places. Why don’t you go to some credible sources – either Catholic or not – for solid information on a subject you’re admittedly not familiar with. In a way, you’re doing exactly what you’re accusing others of – stereotyping a religion based on your own ignorance of the complexities of its theology- is that a little bit judgmental? It’s also true that many or most Catholics don’t know the details of Catholic theology – after all, theology is a subject for college and post-graduate study, up to the doctorate level, and even there, ideas are being honed and refined and subject to discussion.
I’m a cradle Catholic and life-long Democrat, and am comfortable with both and intend to remain so indefinitely, because my Catholic faith and teaching on social justice leads me to seek the greater good for all people. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with each and every policy of the Democratic party, and doesn’t mean that I believe that each action and pronouncement of Catholic prelates is 100% correct, because both are composed of human beings, who by their very nature are imperfect. Therefore, it is our obligation to inform ourselves as best as we can and to act ethically on the conclusions we make.
FYI, this is the story she’s talking about.
I’m not getting you’re criticism. If you don’t agree with power institutions such as a political Party or a Christian demonination, shouldn’t you talk about it?
There are many days when institutions suddenly reverse themselves on things that were dogma, such as the condemnation of interracial marriages, which was quite common 60 years ago. Many of those battles would be a lot easier if people were able to even talk about it. How many people sat back feeling in their heart that what the institutions were doing was wrong, but said nothing? The first step is dialog.
If the reaction for anyone who starts the dialog is be quiet, you don’t know what you’re talking about, our quest for understanding is going to be a difficult journey.
The only reason that politics has defined religion is because the Democratic Party of the United States sat back and allowed it to happen. NOT the voters… The leaders…
I have a secret to share with you. Most Democrats DO NOT entirely agree with everything that the Democratic Party says… I know this for a fact because I’ve knocked on more than one thousand Democratic families doors in this election and will continue to do so until either I can’t walk anymore or until the election is over.
I have another secret to share with you. Most Catholics do not entirely agree with everything that the Catholic Church says… I know this because I am one of them and have been for my entire life. I could give you dozens of examples but will never use the internet for such a purpose.
It is wrong to use the internet to make statements about any person’s religion.
It is wrong to stereotype people based upon their religion. Especially when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
It is wrong to define people’s positions on political policy based upon their religion. This is a trick that the Democratic Party in Washington has used to systematically destroy excellent candidates in their own primary elections year after year after year… They paint pictures in people’s minds that are totally inaccurate and they cause great candidates to lose primary elections within their own party. Then they present the voters in November with a candidate that most people do not feel comfortable voting for… THEN THEY LOSE. The Democratic Party of Southern Ohio has done this 16 straight times in this Congressional District – For 32 years…
I would have defeated Jean Schmidt in last year’s election. But I never got the chance because I didn’t win the primary. Maybe this time will be different.
Susie, first let me apologize if I offended you. That was never my intent. I am not being judgmental about Catholics or any other religion. How does me talking of the Pope getting rid of Limbo equate to a sterotype of Catholics? Did you make sure you knew what you were talking about before you acused me of the same? I asked for correction. If I’m wrong a simply ‘yo girlie you got all that mixed up’ would suffice. I dont expect Catholics or anyone to know all the theology and I dont think I insinuated that I did. I would be the LAST person to fault anyone for that.
I am asking a question about something I know nothing about and dont understand. I was taught there is nothing wrong in that. It is something more of us need to be doing.
The fact that you are a “cradle” Catholic and democrat AND you dont necessarily agree 100% with either is part of my point. Where is everyone? We always here so many extremes…where is everone else?
Ummm Mr Parker… I’ll respond to you later.
Again, a good post, Mrs. Editor. Of all the things in Catholic dogma, limbo doesn’t rate real high on things to get worked up about. Current thinking in the Church is that God does not discriminate against people who lead a life of good works whether Catholic, baptized or not. I go along with that line of thinking. Vatican II was a very good thing. Since Vatican II brought so many changes so quickly, my generation thinks nothing of a smal changes of dogma from the Pope. This pope is not high on the radar either. The big things that need change are ignored. We are running out of priests. Europeans barely go to Mass or support the Church. Why was the abuse of children by the clergy such a widespread phenomenon?
I am amazed that the American Catholic Bishops have aligned themselves with the extremists in the fundamental/evangelicals. Catholics have faced a lot of prejudice and hatred from these groups and except for abortion and gay rights, they don’t have anything else in commom. Very strange bedfellows. It’s a dangerous alliance that most Catholics aren’t comfortable with.
Catholics as a whole don’t get too worked up about the minutia of doctrine or pay attention to the insignificant small stuff. There’s just too much of it. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and there’s a ton of stuff we didn’t even touch on. We are not bible readers. An institution 2000 years old has a lot of intricate practices. We know the main doctrine, the important stuff. We believe that one constantly has to strive for perfection. That one doesn’t enter into the kingdom of heaven unless one is free from sin. We constantly ask forgiveness and make restitution. We are responsible for sins of commission and OMMISSION. I think that is a vitally important point. We must not be passive. We can’t sit back and do nothing. We must actively help others and not miss opportunities to be charitable.
We can’t just say we’re baptized, we believe in Christ and therefore we’re going to heaven.
Finally, Catholics don’t talk about their faith in public the way evangelicals do. A lot of people didn’t understand why Kerry was reluctant to discuss his religion. To me, Kerry sounded just like what he was, a Catholic. We think it is useless to say we’re Christian, we are supposed to act like Christians and by our actions you will know us.
A long comment above, forgive me but I forgot one point. I don’t understand how anyone can consider themselves Christian and go along with the Republican party as it stands today. The economic harm to the poor and middle class through their policies just doesn’t jive with Chritianity. This whole idea of am I better off rather than we’re in this together is so wrong. The selfishness and meanspiritedness and prejudice is just wrong.
My question isn’t why Democrats aren’t taking “God” back. Rather, it is why government should be concerned about religion in the first place. Ideally, I don’t care or want to know what religion a high government officeholder holds dear…just do your damn job.
Exactly. Again, Catholics have a very vested interest, even if many don’t get it, to support separation of Church and state. Who’s church is going to win out over the others? What religious beliefs are going to be foisted on your children? Like a good Catholic dem friend of mine here said, “When they talk about school prayer I tell them I’m all for it as long as it’s the Hail Mary.” Yeah, that would be over big with the extremists.
I agree with Americain. Why should there be a contest to see who can SOUND the most “religious”? Bush certainly tries to SOUND religious but where in his policies has he followed the teachings of Jesus? I don’t see it. I think he has a lot more getting right with God to do.
I disagree that most Democrats are “accepting” of labels such as Russell Johnson’s recent charge that anyone who doesn’t go along with his ideas about imposing his particular brand of religion on everyone is a “secular jihadist.” In fact, most progressive Christian Democrats I know — and I know many — are angry and frustrated, The media loves to focus on crazies like Robertson and even guys like Fred Phelps whose “church” consists of about 12 immediatel family members. But he makes good copy! Likewise, the extremistm of people like Johnson and Parsley, the Ohio Restoration Project and the Patriot Pastors, makes good copy, but I wonder if they are as numerous as they like to project. When over 100 progressive Christians were arrested at the Capitol Building in Washington in December, protesting the impact of the budget bill on the needy, the sick and the elderly, it received almost no coverage. Where is the interest in reporting about Christians standing up for those Jesus stood up for? Apparently, it doesn’t exist for the mainstream media.
Okay I’m going to try to break this down into a couple of comments. It has been brought to my attention rather passionately that me talking about Limbo and then going on to the political extremist is giving the impression that I am saying Catholics are being extremist. Read my Lips. I am not saying this. I in no way consider Catholics or religion alone extreme. My whole intent on discussing is not Catholics or their dogma. But more the “religious right” and “Christianity”. There is so much extremism going on in ALL religions just where are the regular people and why aren’t they standing up?
anastasiap brings up a good point. That it doesnt get alot, if any, media coverage. But it seems at least outside the blogs, I call them regular people, are kind of complacent with what is happening. ‘Bush & republican scandals…ehhh..what are you gonna do’ kind of apathy that just worries me.
Americain-I agree 100%. The minute the government starts emphasising religion I start getting nervous. The government has no business in religion-period.
Goddess~Thank you. The whole limbo thing was interesting to find out about. A month ago I didnt know it exsisted and boom it was gone. I just didnt understand. Someone else told me about Catholics not talking about their faith alot. It was alittle odd for some evangelicals. Abit of explanation goes a long long way. I think we would all be alittle better off we took the time to find out and explain a few things to each other. If I took this attitude with every white person I met I wouldnt have very many friends…or a husband…or a son. Hmmm..maybe I should rethink this. (just kidding..please dont send me anymore mad mail) This huge rebellion of sharing our ideas and beliefs is very bizzare to me.
“We think it is useless to say we’re Christian, we are supposed to act like Christians and by our actions you will know us.” Well Amen to THAT!!
I’m still trying to figure out how I feel about getting the virtual smackdown from Jim-the american dream-Parker. Shockingly… his whole response is just alittle…odd..mayhaps abit angry.
Do you really believe the democratic party is the one who define people’s positions on political policy based upon their religion? That the regular people…voters dont have some responsiblity some ability to shape the platform of politics?
I am offended that you would suggest that I was sterotyping anyone. Where in my words do you believe this to be true?
Darlin I’m sure you must be tired knocking on all them doors but you are no more the authority on all Catholic people or the people in the 2nd district than I am of black people. For you to suggest you are simply because you are walking the streets and knocking on 1,293 doors is beyond patronizing.
Editor: Re your comment #2: I wasn’t saying don’t criticize if you don’t agree, I said “get informed about your topic before you comment”. At least you cited a more credible source than the Daily show or the Colbert Report, although Fr. Greeley is a sociologist, not a theologian and his column an opinion piece. That’s why I advocate going to original sources, when possible, for your information. We all know that a lot of what passes for information on the web is incorrect. I am rather ignorant on most Protestant theology and therefore would not comment publicly on it. The comments of Jim Parker and Goddess are accurate, generally; I didn’t wish to get into the intricacies of limbo (not a dogma, not even doctrine- more a theory)late last night, but Goddess did a good job of explaining. I do question why a minor (and I do mean minor)part of a specific religion should be a lead-off for discussion of the relationship of religion and politics in the US today, on a blog about the US 2nd Congressional district.
Susie, you can Google the Limbo/limbo story to find many references to it in the press. (Something that I did before she posted, and something that you should have done before attacking.) If finding out information about things from The Daily Show is wrong, then I’m afraid that many Democrats are very guilty.
I believe that Mrs. Editor was using a discussion about Limbo as a springboard about all the things that people don’t talk about concerning Religion. The main reason that people don’t is the assume the worst type of reactions that seem to inevitably ensue.
To be honest with you, Limbo seems like one of the few safe topics that can be used to trigger the discussion given the current state of faith in out country, especially since Angels dancing on the head of a pin has gone out of fashion.
My humble advice to those offended is lighten up. Christianity survived and eventually took over the Roman Empire without any other weapon than the word of Jesus Christ. Surely it can handle a few questions from Mrs. Editor…
Well, I guess I am a real expert on limbo. As a child, I once sang the part of an infant from limbo in the prologue to Boito’s Mephistopheles at the Chicago Lyric Opera. “Siam nimbi dei santi splendori vaganti siam cori di bimbi d’amore…Et dei volante cherubini d’or….etc….” Spelling probably wrong. I was a little kid at the time and knew no Italian.
Actually, I was born Jewish though.
All I wanted to know is where did Limbo go.
You’re ticked off that I found this out from the Daily show? Seriously??
What I am understanding from Susie and Jim (and the rest of the really upset folks) is religion is never to be discussed….at least not in public…unless you know it’s entire doctrine and current dogma and actually practice said religion….and never ever on the internet.
So much for trying to learn something new…worse yet so much for discussing the current state of religon in politics.
Well just so the rest of yall reading this too worried to comment know. You can ask me and tell me anything and I wont be offended. Southern baptist or church of God in Christ, black churches vs white churches, 3rd moon to the left of Pluto. It’s all good here.
oooo Jewish?!! I’ll leave that alone…theres enough ruffled feathers around here.
I grew up Catholic and I have to agree with Anastasia AND Mr.s Editor…Limbo has been pre-empted. In Catholic school we used to talk about Limbo in the early 1960′s but soon after it just sort of faded away. Call it a kind of group amnesia, it just went away as if everyone had been brainwashed. (Gee, there’s a stretch, religion as brainwashing). Even George Carlin weighed in on it in his “Class Clown” album back in 1972…”I think they’ve since cancelled Limbo. Well, I hope they promoted everybody and didn’t just cut them loose in space”.
Editor: You have no idea what I googled or didn’t google. (If Carlin was doing “limbo” in ’72, where’s the outrage). I give up . – It’s your blog. Put out whatever you want.
Ah, the Catholic Faith. One of my favorite topics. Having been raised Catholic and having a mother that takes everything from the Vatican and “Catholic” bible literally, I relish over changes in that religion. When I was in deep depression from the past Presidential election, my mother informed me everybody who voted for John Kerry was going to hell. Bite the tongue and say, “Well, with Bush, you are right, at least half the country will be living in hell.” She knew who I campaigned for. Funny way for a mother to tell you to go to hell.
I left “The Church”, I left institutional religions overall. Guess I am one of those liberals. I cannot sit comfortably with hypocrisy and I feel a church should try to be true and pure in thought as well as deeds. I read Buddhist writings and feel good from what I read. I developed my own religion, the religion of living, hoping I do good, hoping I work for the good, live 110%. I figure I will see what happens when I die, just let it happen and I will go where I go, could just be to ashes. So life is where it is!
But being raised Catholic always keeps you in tune to what they are up to (plus having a mother that calls and tells me the latest from the Catholic Telegraph). The Pope is supposed to be infallible. HE (note HEEEE) gets messages from God. Yesterday Limbo here, today Limbo gone. Must of been a bad idea. Didn’t work out. Yesterday “in God we trust” is NOT in the pledge of allegiance, Today …, Tomorrow? Still a country, still the USA and I pledge to my country.
After hearing about Limbo going “limbo”, I did get concerned about all those unbaptized babies. Not really worried, just wondered where the Catholics were going to put them. I am glad to hear from a previous post that they go someplace nice. I like happy endings.
Mrs. Editor, thanks for the fun post. Do we really have to be serious all of the time? And, even though I am not a religious person, I love religions. Great diversity and ideas and color come from religions. And really, most religions are not trying to take our civil rights away, just a few. Let’s celebrate our religious freedom and let’s keep it that way.
Do I hear Amen!
It’s a blog, public discourse, we can discuss anything. I think it’s been rather civil and I think the idea of CIVIL discourse has been lost. I am a Catholic in my heart but I do not support a lot of what the Pope or the bishops do. We need solutions to the many problems of the Church and they are reactionaries. Catholics protest quietly. The bishops and the Pope are ignored. Collections and attendence are down. Protestant churches are growing and the largest Christain denomination is not. It’s so sad. A great institution that could do so much good in the world is being marginalized. Instead of electing a progressive “people” pope, they elected an Opus Dei backed nazi reactionary. Me, a little bitter, naw.
I would be much more open to religious expression if there wasn’t a concerted effort from religious fanatics in this country to have their faith codified into law. I like what CJ had to say about making one’s own religion, it’s very Jeffersonian as he stated that…”I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.” And by the way, how does one just get rid of Limbo? It’s a mystery.
I am really loving that way of thought CJ. Amen and Amen!!
While I didnt really intend this whole discussion to be about Catholic stuff I do admit its pretty neat info.
I was upset about the people who had limbo and then it was gone. Now I know it’s no big deal but I gotta tell you. I thought it was a doozy. My second thought was..well where did it go??
Religions are so varied and a completely different aspect in most of our lives. Different isnt bad…it just is….and thats ok.
Now I know all yall are just dying to know why black women get so dressed up for church. hahaha….no..poor Mr. Editor is dyin over there. I’ll leave it alone baby.